2012 LOTP Proposed Activities Budget

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This is my position on the Activites we provide in Lansdowne.  In short, I am for them, as many as possible.  But with fewer than 10% of the homes regularly participating, and some requesting none, we must compromise.

This is in answer to a letter from a resident who wants to keep the budget the same.

I understand your feelings and certainly take them into consideration when voting on these things.
The other things I must take into consideration are the feelings of others in the community, the cost vs. the number of families who participate and the ability to hold activities that are just as fun, but not as expensive.

I have proposed reducing the budget of the activities committee from $75,000.00 to $50,000.00, but I strongly believe, and the Activities Committee has demonstrated, that we can have these wonderful events and consider the wishes of all residents by reducing the costs.  For instance, the net budgeted cost of this year's pool party (the second most expensive event)  was approximately $6000.00, a steep reduction from year's past yet the party was great and no one said they enjoyed it less than before. 

Meanwhile, the net budgeted cost of Octoberfest (the most expensive event) was $41000.00.  Fewer than 200 families participated, less than 10% of Lansdowne.  I believe this event or a similar one can be held at a much lower cost with just as much enjoyment.  In fact, the final numbers are coming in and showing that the Activities Committee put this on at about $6000 less than budgeted this year.  That is a testament to their abilities.  I have asked that all events continue to be offered and none be eliminated unless there is no interest, and I thank the volunteers on behalf of the community for the tireless, terrific job they do voluntarily.

So, let me just say that I have received many requests, and residents have written the Board, to reduce or eliminate entirely the Activities budget.  This is actually not something that was in the Covenants or other governing documents, but was added as a resolution of the Board.  So, some can argue that we should not have them.  I happen to agree with you in that Activities are the heart and soul of what makes us a community.  However, fewer than 10% of the families in Lansdowne participate in any given event.  Some never participate in any and some participate in many, often the same events each year they are presented.

I believe those who participate, given the extremely low cost of the events for the value, would still participate if they had to pay a little more.  I believe the reduction in overall cost will satisfy the great majority of residents who never participate, but pay toward them approximately $40 within their HOA dues annually.

I hope you understand that not all in the community agree with you or me and we need to consider everyone's wishes to the extent possible.  This is why I am proposing a compromise that, hopefully, will make everyone satisfied.

Thanks very much for writing and expressing your views.  All participation in the community is appreciated.

Very best regards,
Robin Crabtree

 

 

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by mark and lorraine whitton on October 5, 2011 at 10:47am
I agree that we should have activities, but the funding from the HOA should be proportional to the participation rate.  Something with low participation (under 10%) that costs a few hundred or a couple of thousand dollars might be fine.  Clearly Octoberfest has low participation and high HOA costs, which is not good.  An event with high participation (over 30%) might merit more funding.
Permalink Reply by robin on October 5, 2011 at 11:19am
My point exactly, but because it isn't an equitable arrangement for
the residents who do not participate.  I just crunched some numbers this morning and found that the NET cost of Oktoberfest per attendee is about $56.00.  To be clear, this is AFTER they paid for their ticket.  We had 88 nonresidents in attendance and paid almost $5000 NET to entertain them.  Don't read anything into this except that I must be cognizant of everyone's feelings when I vote to approve the 2012 budget.  I am a HUGE fan of Susan Postle after this year.  We all owe her and the rest of the Activities committee many, many thanks.  I have spoken with her and I've seen what they can do for our money.  I love activities as much as the next person and want all of them, at a lower cost to the HOA.  It can be done.  Who didn't enjoy the pool party??  The NET cost per attendee to the pool party this year was exactly $14.22 per attendee.  With the talent on the Activities committee, I know we can have more activities if we follow the pool party template a bit more closely.  By asking for a lower budget, I am considering all residents by reducing costs while
maintaining all activities.

Best regards.
Permalink Reply by Jennifer Holzbach on October 5, 2011 at 12:19pm

WOW!  The numbers on Octoberfest are staggering.  The cost to get into the event is what has kept my husband and I from going.  If Octoberfest either had a lower admission fee, or perhaps if there were some options - all inclusive pass like we have now, food only (no drinks) offered at a lower price, or if it were run like a fair where tickets are sold for moon bounce, food, drinks... I think we would have much greater participation and lower the neighborhood cost per person ratio.  I know that we would definitely come out if there was less of an upfront financial obligation to us.  Not knowing if it is something we would enjoy has kept us from committing to the ticket fee every year, but I would have LOVED to be able to come and check it out before committing such a large amount to bring my whole family.

 

That said, I wanted to say that I really enjoy having the different things offered that we have.  We loved the outdoor movie last year (we didn't get to go this year), pictures with Santa last year were the best of the years we've gone and the changes coming for Halloween look exciting.  I would love to have even more activities offered and if they can do more for less that would be even better.  

Permalink Reply by Virgil DiCenzo on October 5, 2011 at 12:22pm

Before starting, in the interest of full disclosure, I will note that I am a member of the LOTP Activities Committee and, as such, am intimately familiar with the cost structure, as well as the efforts involved with planning and executing LOTP events.  That said, I think that it might be helpful to add a little perspective to the numbers.  By the end of 2011, the Activities Committee will have put on 21 separate events that were at least partially funded with HOA money collected from residents (the total number is actually 27, but I used $500 of HOA money as the threshold for inclusion). 

While some of those events were "free" to any resident of Lansdowne that wished to attend (as defined by not having any incremental cost to residents above what they contributed as part of their monthly HOA dues), others included an additional fee for those that attended.  The total HOA funding that was used for those events (monies collected from residents via HOA dues) was approximately $75K, which comes out to $34.80 per household for the ENTIRE YEAR ($75K divided by the 2,155 homes listed on the HOA website) OR only $2.90 PER MONTH (essentially the cost of a cup of coffee).

While I realize that not all events will appeal to every member of the community, given the breadth of events offered in 2011, I find it difficult to believe that there is a single household in LOTP that should not have been able to find one or more events to attend that would have allowed them to realize the entire value of the $34.90 that they contributed towards the events that took place in 2011.

Taking an extreme approach, even if we were to completely eliminate the entire HOA funding for community activities, and offer that money back to the residents of the community, each household would get back $2.90 per month.  That is not an amount that would have a significant financial impact to anyone’s life. 

Or, for those residents that are opposed to Oktoberfest, we spent $25K of HOA money, that was collected from residents, on the 2011 event (and not the $41K noted by Robin).  If we were eliminate that event, it would result in a “give-back” of $.97 each month (or $11.60 for the entire year) to the residents, hardly a material figure.

In terms of measuring the “success” of events by virtue of attendance figures, and the % of the community that participates, I guess that’s something that is subjective and depends on the viewpoint of the individual making that assessment.  In my opinion, an event, like Oktoberfest, that had 700 attendees, is a very successful event, in terms of community participation. 

Part of my reasoning for making that determination is to consider the capabilities that exist, relative to facilities in our community, to stage such events.  Mark, or possibly Lorraine, Whitton noted above that “An event with high participation (over 30%) might merit more funding”.  However, if you take a step back and think about what that would entail, based on the “fewer than 10% of Lansdowne” figure that Robin referenced for Oktoberfest, we would need a facility/space for well over 2,000 attendees in order to reach the 30% of Lansdowne number.  An event of that size just is simply not possible, given the current facilities that exist within LOTP. 

 

The bottom line is that in order to continue LOTP events at the quantity and quality of those offered in 2011, it simply is not possible to execute with a $25K decrease in HOA funding.  If we were to proceed with the budget reduction, it would not result in any meaningful financial impact to the residents, but could have a significant impact to the "quality of life" for many LOTP residents.

Permalink Reply by robin on October 5, 2011 at 12:43pm

I hear you, Virgil.  I hear everyone on both sides of the coin and must consider all.  All of my numbers are solid.  Not many are privy to the fact that somehow, someone decided that we should give $10K to CMC so they could give it back as a "vendor donation" to be applied directly to Oktoberfest.  Where this line item is noted on the budget does not change the fact that it is HOA funded for a total of $85K for Activities, not $75K that the budget appears to assign to Activities.

Here are the approximate numbers:

A conservative estimate (final numbers are not tabulated for the Board yet) of total income based on late comers ticket fees and the final attendee count (I think there was an early discount so this income will be high in that case) is $11820.00.  The total cost came in about $45K, that makes estimated net cost about $39180 or Net cost to the HOA per attendee of $55.89.  Since there were 88 non-residents there, the HOA paid about $4918 to entertain nonresidents.

 

Conversely, the exact per attendee HOA Net cost for the pool party was $14.22, $41.67 per person less net cost to the HOA.

 

More heads are better on this and I LOVE the Jennifer's ideas!  Keep them coming!

Permalink Reply by Ryan Stokes on October 5, 2011 at 6:10pm

The real question...why are you trying to cut to budget?  Do we need to save the money so it can be spent elswhere?  Do we need this extra cash to support the lawsuit against Openband?  Pure guess...yes.

 

The board has moved forward with a lawsuit that ultimately will cost each household $200-$300 each.  So now you want to take a shot at the easiest target to pay for it without having to pass a special assesment!!!

 

While I think the lawsuit is a lost cause and waste of money, I would rather have the assesment and pay the $300 or whatever it is.  I want the "majority" of homeowners who have issues with openband to put their money where they feel most strong.  You might find a different perspective when people find out they have to pay to have their opinions recognized.  I honestly don't buy into the 10% of homeowners attending the events.  It might be 10% at this one and a completely different 10% at another.  If we want to use that logic, then let's close the indoor pool...willing to bet that less than 5% of the neighborhood uses the indoor pool...I don't use the pool...I would like to vote that we close it down.  How about the makeshift room we call a gym...real gem there.  I don't use that either...can we close that as well.

 

The logic you are using concerning the activities in the neighborhood is flawed.  While I think we can certainly do things that cost less (I'll be honest, a grill with some brats, beer in a keg, and a few moonbounce make a great Oktoberfest for me), I would rather see us have more events with the same money.  This is what makes the neighborhood special and desirable.  We get to socialize with families during these times that we would not otherwise see.  We all have busy lives, this is our opportunite(s) to come together.

 

Finally, since I'm on my rant, some of these same people need to volunteer for/toward the community.  The 98% who do nothing but show up and find something to complain about, volunteer!!!  It is the same people over and over that try to put these events together for you...start contributing to your community instead of being a taker.

 

Ryan

 

Permalink Reply by robin on October 13, 2011 at 4:42pm
So, to close out this thread, you should all know that the members of
the Finance Committee fully supported the Activities budget for this
year and recommended to the Board to approve the full budget.  The
full budget was approved with the current allotted funding for
Oktoberfest.  However, this year Oktoberfest came in at $8500 less
than budgeted.  So, even before these comments, quoted below, the
Activities committee had made adjustments.
“I agree that we should have activities, but the funding from the HOA
should be proportional to the participation rate.”
“If Octoberfest either had a lower admission fee, or perhaps if there
were some options - all inclusive pass like we have now, food only (no
drinks) offered at a lower price, or if it were run like a fair where
tickets are sold for moon bounce, food, drinks... I think we would
have much greater participation and lower the neighborhood cost per
person ratio.”
“If we were to proceed with the budget reduction, it would not result
in any meaningful financial impact to the residents, but could have a
significant impact to the "quality of life" for many LOTP residents.”
“While I think we can certainly do things that cost less (I'll be
honest, a grill with some brats, beer in a keg, and a few moonbounce
make a great Oktoberfest for me), I would rather see us have more
events with the same money.”
I heard all of your voices and to some extent, I have been swayed.  It
isn't the amount of dollars per month that is significant.  It is the
way we spend them.  By all means, let us keep the previous budget and
also continue the trend of spending less in some areas so we can offer
more activities that appeal to a wider audience.

Thanks to everyone who commented.

Robin
Permalink Reply by robin on October 13, 2011 at 8:37pm

Hi, Larry.  I'm not sure what point you are making here, but as you know, there were four line items that I disagreed with initially.  The history of the voting on prior budgets by certain members of the board is comparable. There was no public commentary on the other three to sway my opinion and I voted accordingly.

Best regards,

Robin

Permalink Reply by Larry Miller on October 13, 2011 at 11:24pm

 

   I don't know what happened to my original post , it seems to have been deleted.  I'll try again.  The full 2012 budget including the full Activities Committee budget was passed by the BoD in a 4 to 1 vote.  The dissenting vote was cast by Robin Crabtree after she voiced strong opposition to the funding level for Activities budget and 3 other line items.  I post this for informational and clarification purpose for those not in attendance at the Board meeting on 10/5.

 

 

Larry Miller

Treasurer, LOTP HOA

Permalink Reply by Lansdowner on November 9, 2011 at 9:30pm

Had to revive this thread because I, for one, am pleased that you were outvoted, Robin.  The issue of cutting the budget had nothing to do with community interests or burden on nonparticipants.  Our community is comparatively wealthy and can spare to spend the money.  When homeowners buy here, they are told how much it will cost.  They can say "no" and move to another area with fewer costs and far fewer amenities.  Many of us who stay, and faithfully pay, do so precisely because of the activities that are offered and the personal sense of community that it creates.  No one has to participate in these activities, but then no one forced those homeowners to buy their homes in Lansdowne.  That choice was all their own, and the rest of us shouldn't be punished for their disinterest.

 

 

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